Breaking the Rules: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Perfectionism with Heather Whelpley

Angie Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of No More Mondays. I’m your host, Angie Callen. Are you a perfectionist? If you just nodded your head, cringed, or smirked at the ask, I’m guessing there’s a good chance the answer is yes. And that you also know we all want to think that perfectionism is a strength, but it’s often a trap that binds us and limits our potential. And here’s where today’s guest comes in. Heather Whelpley is a speaker and author and an advocate for helping women let go of perfect, ditch imposter syndrome, and create our own rules for life. Her background in HR and leadership development across the globe has provided some really amazing insight into the plight of the overachiever, and I am very excited for she and I to dig into this and learn from her, because I think even I’m going to pick up a tip or two. So, Heather, welcome to No More Mondays.

Heather Thank you, Angie. I’m so excited to be here today and have this conversation.

Angie Yeah, before we started recording, Heather and I realized we have a lot of little common talking points, and you’re all about to hear them unfold. We’ve never had an episode really dedicated to this thing — imposter syndrome — that has become a very trending topic, and we’re going to come back to that in a second. But you hit a lot of the hot buttons that professional women, specifically, I think, feel today, and I know there’s a lot of men out there who are also dealing with this, and this is all going to be relevant for you. Whether it’s imposter syndrome or perfectionism — a friend of mine and I used to say we were prisoners of our own responsibility. Let’s start with your story, because I think giving a little snapshot and some context into your background is going to just really help bring perspective to this, and I’m guessing that a lot of your perspective on these things is because of your experience. So tell me where all of that came from.

Heather Absolutely, and before I do, I have to say I love that — prisoners of my own responsibility. I feel like I know I have a lot of friends who would probably categorize themselves in that same category as I would as well, sometimes. So my background — you gave me a great professional introduction there as a speaker and author that works with women to let go of perfect and create their own rules for life, and that comes because that’s my own experience of realizing these rules that are placed on us that create this environment where we have to prove, please, and perfect our way through life, whether that’s through work or other aspects of life as well. And that was also my story for a really long time. I am the classic overachiever since high school — top of my class, and felt like I had to be there even though no one was telling me I had to be there. It was this very internally driven, I have to be at the top of my class, I have to do well. And while I didn’t necessarily follow a traditional career trajectory immediately out of college — I taught environmental education, I led outdoor trips in Latin America and the US — once I got into my corporate job, that overachiever came roaring back. I again put so much pressure on myself that I had to be successful the first time I tried something, I had to be productive all the time, I couldn’t disappoint anyone. I had no boundaries for 25 or 30 years of my life. I was exhausted all of the time. And then when I became an entrepreneur, it doubled down even more, because then suddenly it really did feel like it was all on me — and to a certain degree that was true, but that made me feel like I have to work even harder, which was really not the key. Finally, there was a point in my entrepreneurship — probably a year, year and a half in — where I stopped and asked myself why. Why am I doing this? I asked myself that because I realized that in my business I was actually experiencing less freedom than I had had as a corporate employee, which was not what I wanted. I am a very freedom-oriented person, and I felt like I was waking up thinking about work, going to sleep thinking about work. I felt like I had to match my corporate salary as soon as I got out of corporate — just all of these very unrealistic expectations that I had of myself. And so I finally stopped and asked myself why, and the answer came to me immediately: I was trying to prove myself. I was trying to prove my worth through achievement and through perfecting everything, trying to prove to myself and to others that I was worthy of being there, that I was worth something. And once I realized that connection, I was able to take a step back and say, where is this coming from? What do I actually want to believe? Where do I want to take my life, my business, my career? It’s funny because I didn’t, on a conscious level, think or believe that our worth is tied to achievement — I believe that we are all worthy separate from anything that we are doing — but I didn’t believe that on a deeper level about myself. So it took some of that dissecting of these rules that were handed to me. When I say creating your own rules for life, it’s because I want us to look at those messages, those beliefs, those rules that were handed to us — I can’t disappoint anyone, I have to be productive all of the time, I’m not allowed to fail, I’m not allowed to make a mistake — and say, do I really want to follow them anymore? And if not, what is going to work for me? What do I really believe? That started me on a whole other journey, which is what my first book is about, called An Overachiever’s Guide to Breaking the Rules: How to Let Go of Perfect and Live Your Truth. I saw it not just in myself but in a lot of the women I was coaching, and so that’s how I got to where I am right now — I mostly write and speak on these topics: imposter syndrome, perfectionism, how do we rediscover our authentic voice separate from those rules we’ve been handed, and how do we create our own rules for success.

Angie I feel like we could either just end the podcast right now or start about 75 other podcast episodes, because there are about 27 points in there I want to dig into. You and I are also of a very similar age, probably raised by similar-aged parents of a certain generation, and I would even say similar geographic things — I grew up in Pennsylvania, and you’re from Minnesota, right?

Heather I am from Minnesota, yeah.

Angie So there was also that — those rules kind of came down from above or before us. And I think we’re at a point now of stopping and saying, are these still the rules, actually, and really taking autonomy to define the rule set that’s going to guide us. The first thing you said is I was the top of my class, and I was like, oh no, here we go — because I was also the classic overachiever, valedictorian. My piece that relates to what you said is I really struggled with what I think was imposter syndrome 25 years ago when I graduated from high school. I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life, and it’s taken a long time to look back on that and realize how self-conscious I was about it, how it made me feel like I wasn’t worth as much because I was a top performer who didn’t have a strong career direction. Now I realize it was because I was way too entrepreneurial, and they don’t teach that in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania — or anywhere, really. But it’s so funny how we’ve finally defined this thing that I believe gets in the way, that we’re really good at imposing on ourselves, and that is imposter syndrome. It’s a very buzzy term, and I think people throw it around without knowing what it is, or worse, experience it without even knowing it. I had a client literally yesterday say, ‘I think I realized something, and I think it’s called imposter syndrome.’ And I was like, holy cow. So let’s just stop and take a minute and get everybody on the same page. Define imposter syndrome for us.

Heather Imposter syndrome, to a certain degree, is self-explanatory. It is feeling like an imposter, or like a fraud, or experiencing that self-doubt even though you are qualified and successful — and that second part is really the crux of it. So it’s not just generalized self-doubt, it’s believing or self-assessing your skills, your qualifications, and your experiences as lower or worse than they actually are. For some people, they feel this way every single day — I’ve had people of all genders tell me that every single day on their way to work, they feel like today’s going to be the day their boss realizes they have no idea what they’re doing, and they’re going to tap them on the shoulder and escort them out the door. For a lot of other people, it’s more situational. It’ll show up when you have to present to senior leaders, or when you’re interviewing for a new job, or thinking about any type of career development — you start to wonder, do I really know enough to do that, am I qualified enough, who am I to think I can be a leader, who am I to think I can go be an entrepreneur? I just got lucky. They chose the wrong person. All of those are really common thoughts associated with imposter syndrome. And I think it’s really important to point out — it is called a syndrome, but it’s not actually a syndrome, clinically speaking.

Angie It’s maybe a condition or an experience is probably a better way to put it.

Heather Yes, as opposed to something that you have. And I think that is important, because it’s easier to think of it as something that comes and goes when it’s something that you experience, as opposed to a diagnosis that you’re going to have for the rest of your life, and there’s also nothing wrong with it.

Angie And it could be very acute — it could come on hard. However, it’s extremely treatable. And this is what I mentioned to my client yesterday: I have found that it’s a very hard thing to work through on your own. Whether that’s somebody in your family or friend group who can talk you through it, or you work with a coach, I find it’s a hard thing to catch because you can’t get out of your own head about it. That’s really what it is — you’re in your own head thinking you are worth less than you are actually worth to the other people who determine that. You’re valuing yourself less than the professional world actually values you.

Heather It is, and I think, especially if you don’t even know what it is. When I speak on imposter syndrome, there’s a huge realization of just like, oh, this is a thing, and it’s normal. At least 70% of people experience imposter syndrome, but we don’t think that because we aren’t talking about it — we aren’t saying out loud, ‘Gee, I feel like a total fraud today.’ And so even just knowing to name it for yourself matters. I’ve had so many people tell me that their partner, or a coach or mentor, has really been the one who helped them to recognize their own gifts — and that is not a one-time thing. That is something we need on a regular basis. Whether it’s a group of women friends, a partner, anyone in your life that really reminds you of your greatness and your strengths, and that you do have what it takes to do what you want.

Angie And there are statistics on this kind of stuff. Women specifically — and again, this is completely applicable to all genders — but there are statistics specifically around women in the professional world. We are really good at undervaluing ourselves and judging our qualifications. We’re less likely to apply for a job because we think we’re not as qualified as we need to be. We are 50% less likely to negotiate a higher salary than men. And in a time when the pay gap exists and we’re aware of it, this is the kind of stuff we have to advocate and help ourselves in getting better at.

Heather It’s very true, and there are also cultural and structural discrimination reasons for all of this as well. There’s some conflicting research out there — some of which says that underrepresented groups, so women, people of color, are more likely to experience imposter syndrome; other research says that anyone can experience it across the board. We definitely know that white, straight, cisgender men, plenty of them also experience imposter syndrome, but the experience of it isn’t necessarily the same, because in our American culture it is designed — subconsciously or however we want to say that — to buoy back up the confidence of white cisgender straight men faster than other groups, because of pats on the back and mentors, and just the way our system is structured. Men are questioned less than women are. We know that all of these pieces can contribute to both creating and exacerbating imposter syndrome. And I just want to be really careful, because yes, we can do things for ourselves, and we should, but I never want anyone to listen to a conversation and think it’s their fault that they’re experiencing imposter syndrome in the first place.

Angie There’s a reason the experience of the imposter is so prevalent in our working world, and it’s because the conditions have allowed it to develop. And while anyone can experience it, the underrepresented side experiences it differently and has different outcomes because of that structure.

Heather Absolutely.

Angie So let’s talk about the perfectionist thing, because this is a little different than imposter syndrome, and I think it’s of equal importance. It comes on for different reasons, and it really a lot of times is that self-imposed ‘have to do be all the things.’ Where do you see it as a hindrance in the professional world?

Heather There are two different categories that immediately come to mind. One is on your own well-being. When we’re putting all that pressure on ourselves — I kind of think of it as the inner critic — you feel like you should always be doing more, like it’s never enough. And sometimes you raise the bar on yourself so high that you’re not even able to meet your own expectations, or you raise it just high enough that you can reach it, but only through overwork and burning the candle at both ends. Either way, interestingly, the inner critic will still sweep in. If you reach the bar and have that quote-unquote success, the inner critic will swoop in again and say, well, next time I have to work even harder, raise the bar even higher. And if you don’t meet it because your expectations are so unrealistic, it’s even meaner: I should have worked harder, I should have done more. So there’s a lot of internal stress, anxiety, and burnout related to perfectionism. It’s funny — until probably five years ago, I would not have described myself as a perfectionist, because I’m not a detail-oriented perfectionist. I don’t really care if there’s a typo out there. I’m not an overly detailed person; that’s not how my perfectionism showed up. But when I really started to dig into what perfectionism was, really it is just unrealistic expectations.

Angie Being an over-striver, totally. You and I are cut from the same cloth — I’m the same way. I’m completely on board with that 80% is done mentality when it comes to perfection, because it’s not worth your time to chase the last 20%. But when it comes to putting in effort and energy, I completely go overboard. And I think it was interesting to go all the way back to something you said in the very beginning — how this manifests whether you’re in an employment situation or an entrepreneurial one. In employment, you’re often setting expectations for yourself that are higher than your employer has for you. However, what that does is set a new bar and a new expectation that becomes a vicious cycle. Then on the flip side, if you go into the entrepreneurial environment where you have no built-in boundaries, you have to define that structure for yourself with no safety net to keep you from going completely overboard.

Heather Absolutely, and that was me. So if we think of those two buckets — the consequences of perfectionism — one is on your own well-being, but the other really is on your work. Perfectionism is inefficient. We overserve, we overdo. And interestingly, there is an overlap with imposter syndrome there as well — if you feel like you’re not as good as you actually are, you’re going to work really hard to try and make up for a gap that doesn’t actually exist in the first place. They’re kind of a Venn diagram. In the corporate world, you get assigned a task or a project and you feel like you have to give 110% instead of whatever might actually be required. In an entrepreneur role — at least this is how it showed up for me — I worried that my clients would feel like their investment wasn’t worth it, so I overdid it, I over-served them. Part of it was imposter syndrome, part of it was perfectionism. And that is not good for me for my own burnout, and it’s not good because I can’t serve as many people and have the impact I want if I’m over-serving in the areas that don’t actually require that level of service.

Angie I feel like you all are listening to a live recorded session of all the things Angie shouldn’t be doing as an entrepreneur and career coach. My husband is sitting there going, hmm, was Heather prompted to discuss all of these things with my wife, who overworks herself and over-serves her clients? It’s very, very true. So, let’s shift gears slightly. What advice do you have for us? Whether it’s somebody who is holding themselves back because they’re lacking the confidence and self-worth to progress in their career, or somebody who is pushing the boundaries too hard in their own business — what steps do people like us take?

Heather I think there are both short-term in-the-moment steps and longer-term steps. In the moment, some of the best things you can do is first of all just recognize and name what you are experiencing. Now that you know a little bit more about what imposter syndrome is, start to notice when you experience it and simply name it with curiosity — oh, I am experiencing imposter syndrome right now, that’s what’s happening. That act alone will help to decrease its power. The same thing with perfectionism — with total curiosity and compassion: I am being really hard on myself right now. What’s going on here? Right in tandem with that — self-compassion is so important. Self-compassion is recognizing you’re not alone, literally telling yourself: this is normal, other people experience this. And then talking to yourself like you would a good friend. If a good friend who you knew was totally qualified for a job came to you with all those imposter thoughts, what would you say to that friend? Say those same things to yourself. That is a practice, but it’s so good when it comes to both imposter syndrome and perfectionism, because self-compassion is essentially the antidote to self-judgment. Also helpful: having a practice or two that you know gets you out of your head and back into your body, that helps to quiet those inner critic thoughts. For me, hiking is the number one thing. Having people in your life that can remind you of how great you are. Those are going to be different for every single person, but I think it’s helpful to have a couple of those things in your back pocket. On the deeper level, though, it’s really looking at what are these rules and beliefs that have been handed to you — and when I say handed, it might be specifically by individuals in your life, but it can also just be the general cultural messages. For entrepreneurs: rise and grind. The number of ads I got on my Facebook page when I became an entrepreneur about build your six-figure business — you see these messages all of the time.

Angie I’m laughing because I get that as LinkedIn lead gen spam — 17 messages a day like, ‘Hey, would you like 26 qualified leads to your inbox so you can make 50k this week?’ And I’m like, no, no, I don’t.

Heather So we get these messages, and when you can take that step back — like when I realized, what am I doing, and I took that step back with curiosity and compassion, why am I doing this, I’m doing this to prove myself — the next step is to choose some different thoughts and beliefs. For me, the one that really truly changed my life was selecting the belief I am worthy for who I am, not what I do. And when you start to act on that new belief, it was like: oh, if I start to believe that over time and act on it, then I don’t have to overwork all the time. I can take a Wednesday afternoon off and not feel totally guilty if I’m out on the hiking trail. I can do less, and I can ask for more money, and I can do all of these things, because I can still work hard and create an impact, but my personal worth isn’t dependent on it. I was just doing a session last week called Creating Your Own Rules for Success, and someone wrote in the chat, ‘I didn’t realize that these were optional. This is mind-blowing, because I didn’t realize I had the choice to say I don’t want to follow that rule.’ And you do. You have the choice.

Angie That is like the best aha moment somebody could ever get. And I actually think there are also rules we’ve imposed on ourselves — for instance, in the coaching space, that idea around, well, my clients are going to be mad at me if I can’t deliver. I’m totally guilty on that one. Or that we’re not allowed to be people who have needs. That is a completely self-imposed limitation. A step you could take if that’s resonating: stop and think about the last time a client actually got mad at you because you said, hey, I need an extra day to deliver this document, or hey, I had this personal thing happen, can I reschedule? When did anybody get mad at you for that? But anytime it does happen, you immediately go into defensive mode thinking everybody’s going to be upset — and that’s all in your own head.

Heather Yes, and I also want to challenge you a bit on that, because I don’t think we create them ourselves — we can exacerbate them, but they do not typically originate from inside of us. A lot of these come from general cultural messages about productivity and achievement and connecting that to our worth, but some of this is also gender roles. Women have been way more taught to be caregivers, to over-deliver, that they’re not allowed to say no, they’re not allowed to disappoint anyone. I remember talking to a male coach once, and he was like, yeah, I serve my clients, I do what I need to do, but I don’t think about them in between my sessions. And I was like, oh — I do.

Angie You don’t wake up at 3am and go, oh man, I haven’t talked to that person in a month, I better email them?

Heather Exactly. And this isn’t everyone, obviously — I’m making some very broad, stereotypical statements here, but they’re based in some truth about those roles that women have been taught. That’s part of that role that we’ve been handed as a woman, so it feels like it is coming from inside of you, but it does not typically originate from inside of you.

Angie So we’ve chosen to impose a rule on ourselves that we get from society, but we also have the choice to remove that rule from our list of engagements.

Heather Yes, and sometimes there are consequences. I got feedback pretty frequently in my corporate career that I could be too direct, and that relates to part of the role of how a woman is supposed to communicate. There were consequences at times to my being direct, and there are also benefits to it.

Angie If I could have sent you a list of things that we should talk about because we have them in common — I used to be an engineer, and I was already a direct person by nature, but when you’re a woman who then goes into a male-dominated environment like engineering, it only exacerbates that. I interviewed for a job at an engineering firm, and the feedback I got was, ‘Well, you might be too direct for us.’ Side note, I was offered the job anyway, and I did not take it, because if they were worried I was too direct for them, I did not think it was a culture fit. It’s so funny how a man who communicates the way we do is very respected, while a woman who is extremely direct gets a whole lot of five-letter words attached to her.

Heather Exactly. So there is a risk, but I think there’s also a risk in staying quiet. There’s a risk in following those rules on the impact you want to create and on your own well-being. I can tell you that I now experience a level of freedom I did not know was possible five years ago, both internally and in how I choose to spend my time, where I’m putting my energy, and the ability I have to take a risk because I’m not as concerned it’s going to fail. I’m still discovering new rules that I’ve been handed all of the time, but what’s also true is that freedom — it’s really amazing.

Angie Empowering. This could be as simple as something like: I’m going to give myself permission to not see clients on Fridays. It doesn’t have to be as impactful or personality-driven as direct communications — it could just be some logistics element that you decide to give yourself permission around. I really love this idea of sitting down and thinking about the rule set you’re applying to your life, being intentional around whether or not something belongs on that list, how it’s holding you back, and whether you need it — and if you’re willing to accept the sometimes small fallout that comes with choosing to chuck it.

Heather Absolutely, and I will just tell you, my book dives into all of this, so if you want to dive in more, the second chapter is literally called ‘Whose Rules Are You Following,’ and it’ll guide you through this process of discovery.

Angie Perfect segue without even knowing it, Heather. You’ve mentioned the title of the first book — throw it out to everybody again. And I’ve heard you’ve got a number two in the works, so tell me more about that.

Heather The first book is really about my realization of the rules I was following related to overachieving and perfectionism, and breaking away from that and reconnecting to myself separate from those rules. It’s part memoir, part self-help, but it’s really about that segment of my life. The second book is about taking it way broader and looking at all of the rules we have been handed that cause us to prove, please, perfect, and even sometimes rebel against them — which is still a kind of performance. Essentially, how do we stop performing in our lives and just live them? And it goes well beyond work — I’m going to be talking about body image, relationships, gender, all different ways that this shows up. It is a deep dive.

Angie You said exactly the words I was thinking. We’ve talked a lot about this in the context of professional life, but this stuff shows up across all areas of our well-being. When do you think it’ll come out?

Heather I’m probably two-thirds of the way through the second draft. I’m thinking early summer, maybe late spring. It’s always a balance between working on that project and doing the other parts of work and still having a life and resting, because I don’t want to be someone who pedals ‘let go of perfectionism’ and then drives myself to finish it in a crazy fast way. I try and walk my own talk.

Angie And that’s also a good message in itself — not just taking this advice and executing the ideas for the sake of it, but really believing them enough to be an example. And that’s kind of exciting, guys — even the experts and thought leaders are still working through the same stuff. We’re just a half step ahead, so we’ve got the insight to give you resources to learn from the things we had to learn maybe a little harder way. So, speaking of experiences and advice, we’re going to play a little game: rapid fire recommendations. What’s your most memorable travel destination?

Heather Oh, I went to Colombia in probably 2008, 2009 — just after it had become pretty safe to travel there, but right before there were that many tourists. It was unbelievable. We were there during Carnival, which is the second-largest carnival in the world after Rio. The beaches were empty and amazing, the food was fantastic, and the people were great. I went with two friends and we had an absolutely fantastic time. It’s my favorite trip I’ve ever been on.

Angie That’s an awesome memory, and I find that a lot of times the most memorable travel destination is not the destination itself but the experience it lent. Excellent answer. Now — obviously I’m going to ask you for a great book recommendation. We know one, which we’ll link to, but give us another.

Heather Gosh, so many books. I love Brené Brown — actually I probably like her podcast better than her books, and she just started doing them again. This might be a unique one: because I work so much with gender, I just read a fiction book called Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters, and it really challenged my notions around gender on a deep level in a wonderful way. Fiction stories do that in a different way than nonfiction does, because the emotions of it really stick with you. It’s a book I would highly recommend.

Angie We don’t get a lot of fiction recommendations on that list, so I’m kind of glad you went there. What about a favorite movie?

Heather My favorite movie is Field of Dreams — from probably 1990. I was a kid when I saw it, and I love it. I don’t even really like baseball, but I love that movie because I think even at a young age I knew that we needed to listen to our own knowing above what other people were telling us. That movie is about listening to the crazy voice in your head that you know is right, that guiding force, regardless of what other people are telling you. Of course we take feedback and ideas from other people, but then we need to turn inward and listen to ourselves. That’s really what that movie is about.

Angie And produced at a time when that idea of emotional intelligence and intuition was not the norm. I 100% agree, and will just reaffirm that we don’t listen to our gut enough. We’re really good at listening to our brains and discounting how much, even scientifically, our gut can tell us in the decision-making process. Speaking of podcasts — you mentioned Brené Brown, but what podcast do you faithfully listen to?

Heather Definitely both Brené Brown podcasts. I also like Glennon Doyle’s podcast, especially the interviews — it’s called We Can Do Hard Things. I particularly like the interviews because they get really great guests, and they often talk about turning inward and listening to yourself over the rules that society has given to you. Those are two podcasts I listen to pretty frequently. I love podcasts, so there’s a whole bunch — some on the spiritual front, some on the news front. It’s how I get a lot of my information.

Angie Of course, this is a show about Mondays. What is the first word that comes to mind when I say Monday?

Heather I thought about this ahead of time, and the word is engaging. And I know that if it doesn’t feel that way, I need to check in with myself — if I am dreading a Monday, or if I am tired or don’t feel engaged, I need to take a step back and say, do I need to sleep more, or do I need to take a break, or am I not enjoying what I’m working on right now? What is going on? Because the norm for me should be engaging.

Angie That is maybe one of the best answers we’ve ever had, and it’s not because of the word — it’s because of the why behind it. That’s a really good thing to think about: how you look at Mondays, and if you aren’t engaged, you need to pay attention. Well, sadly, as we wrap things up — and I really want to stay here for four more hours — how does everybody follow along with you and hear all of this? How do people find your books, book you for speaking? Where do we stay in tune with Heather?

Heather The best place to find all the information is my website, which is heatherwhelpley.com — look at how to spell my name, but even if you Google something remotely related to it, you will probably find me. On my website you’ll find book info — if you’re in the US, you can get signed hardcover copies on my website; otherwise you can get the ebook, audiobook, and paperback on Amazon, both in the US and globally. You’ll also find speaking info, and if you want to join my email list, scroll to the bottom of any of my web pages and you’ll see a sign-up there. You can also get a guide to saying no and setting boundaries, which if you’re resonating with this conversation you will probably benefit highly from. And LinkedIn is my best social media platform — I’m on LinkedIn a lot, and I will respond there as well.

Angie And Heather and I are now connected there, so you can find her through my network as well. I have a feeling she and I will fill up your news feeds with wonderful, really practical advice for how to ditch imposter syndrome and be less perfect in a great way. As we close things out, we’re going to get one more good piece of advice from you. What is your number one recommendation for what listeners can do to get one step closer to career and life satisfaction?

Heather I actually hinted at it just a few minutes ago — talk to other people, take in that feedback, get ideas from podcasts and individual conversations and books, and then turn inward and listen to what your heart is telling you, what your intuition is telling you, and make decisions based on that. No one else knows what the next right step is for you in your career, in your life. So listen to others, but then really decide based on the voice coming from inside of you.

Angie If you’re going to take time to consume advice — whether it’s books, podcasts, mentorship, time with others — be sure to also take the time to digest and figure out how to apply it to you.

Heather Yes, I love that. I even say in my book, in the very introduction, do the exercises, because just reading is only surface level — but if you do the exercises, you can apply it to yourself. And we miss that a lot in the self-help world: just keep consuming, keep consuming. I need space and silence and writing and journaling and hiking without any earbuds in my ears in order to digest and determine what I really want to take on and listen to.

Angie Heather has so much great stuff to give all of you, so I hope you will tune in to her, grab the book, stay in touch, and follow along. And I have a feeling she and I will continue to fill up your news feeds with wonderful, really practical advice. This has been an amazing conversation — so much wisdom, transparency, honesty, and relatability with your story, and I appreciate you sharing it. Thank you so much for being part of the No More Mondays movement.

Heather Thank you. I’ve enjoyed this conversation and appreciate your openness and vulnerability as well.

Angie Thank you so much. And as we wrap up, everybody out there who’s listening — I would appreciate it if you would subscribe to No More Mondays and leave us a five-star rating. Head over to nomoremondays.info for all the links and resources we chatted about today. Join us again next Wednesday when a new episode hits your podcast feed. Thanks for joining us for another episode of No More Mondays.