Transcript:

Angie 

Welcome to No More Mondays the podcast that helps you navigate career challenges through the wisdom of professionals who have been at the same crossroads. I’m your host, Angie Callen. And I welcome you to join me each week as I chat with leaders, entrepreneurs, and employees who are here to share practical tactical advice and some inspiration on how they arrived and career satisfaction. From job searching and career changes to going out on your own. We’re breaking down barriers and providing actionable takeaways to help you take charge of your Mondays and ditch the Sunday blues. Welcome to the no more Mondays movement. Hello, everyone and welcome to No More Mondays I am your host Angie Callen. Know your niche. You hear this time and time again, if you’re a business owner, or if you’re in marketing, and I am a broken record when it comes to telling people the exact same thing about their careers or their job search, get clarity, know your target, essentially know your niche. Jim Young is a perfect example of somebody who knows exactly who he’s trying to help and exactly how he wants to help them. Literally, if you go to his LinkedIn profile, which I did earlier today, it says, I’m here to do four things help men defeat burnout, help teams and organizations defeat burnout, help foster more inclusive cultures help people get through the challenges of doing one, two, and three. How clear is that? Jim and I are gonna dig into that clarity but also, more importantly, get into this topic of burnout and how all of us can create roadmaps to a more fulfilling life and also enable our teams to do the same no matter what gender we are. So, I hope you will all help me. Welcome to the show, executive coach, facilitator, speaker and now author, Jim Young. Jim, welcome to No More Mondays!

Jim 

Angie, thank you so much. I have been excited to be on the show since we first connected a while back and I can’t wait to get started.

Angie 

Likewise. And so, all of you know out there for the three of you who are no more Mondays fans and listen to every single podcast hi, mom. Jim came to us through through our no our podcast or network, John Saunders, who has the distinction of being the only two time guests as of right now. And anybody he sends my way I tend to love chatting with. And so, let’s get into this. And this is fun, because Jim and I haven’t sat down and dug into this stuff together. So, I kind of get to hear it all while you’re hearing it all. But let’s just I want to I want to hear about the burnout, you said it yourself kind of in your bio that you’ve experienced it. And typically in coaching, I think your strongest perspective is the one that you’ve been through yourself. And it’s kind of framed, how you now look at this and how you serve people. So, tell kind of tell us your burnout story. Give us your backstory and how you came to be here and how burnout really impacted it.

Jim 

Yeah, my burnout story is probably a series of stories. And I’ll try and dot them a little bit to connect them. It really starts when I was about nine years old, and my mom told me to take out the trash, which is maybe like, how does that affect burnout? Well, my mom had just kicked out an abusive boyfriend. And he used to take care of stuff like that. And she said, hey, it’s Tuesday night, trash night, you’re now the man of the house. So, you need to take out the trash. So, that was the loaded statement. And taking on this mantle of man of the house at nine years old. I was totally not ready for that as no nine year old really is. And yet, I had this expectation that well, I should just do it. And that’s a belief that I took on at about nine years old that I carried for a really long time. As we might say outside of Boston, I know you spent some time there, I carried it for a wicked long time. Like at lunchtime wicked long. That’s perfect. And yeah. So, that was the first I call that a burnout seed that was planted in me was this belief that I should just man up and take take on whatever that responsibility is, I shouldn’t have feelings about it. If I do, I should just shut them down. And I don’t need to ask for help. And I came to find out later on that those were really some rules that I had picked up from society, even though nobody said them to me. But I learned like you don’t ask for help you don’t show weakness. Roll forward into my early adulthood years, I didn’t really I already had that. That set of beliefs going on. And I didn’t know what to do for a career. And I had this conversation with my soon to be father in law. And he asked me like so what do you you know, what do you do for work? It’s our first time meeting and I said, Well, I didn’t really want to tell him that I was selling cable TV door to door. That’s what I was doing.

Angie 

So, to be this thing called door to door salesman, everybody who’s 20 years old and younger out there. Go watch The Cable Guy with Jim Carrey you’ll understand.

Jim 

Yeah, it’s way more glamorous when Jim Carrey does it then when I did, its.

Angie 

Actually good point.

Jim 

So, I just remember having this conversation with my, my future father in law, where I wanted to impress this guy. And I didn’t feel like I had something to impress him. And I actually didn’t do a very good job. So, the way that conversation I was really awkward, and then he, I can tell you is disappointed that I like this, this guy that his daughter brought home didn’t really seem to have his act together. And, and he asked me this question like, well, what do you what do you want to do? And I said, well, I answered what I didn’t want to do, which was like, I don’t want to get up early in the morning, put on a tie and go into an office, which is exactly what he’d been doing for like 40 years. So, I like slapped him in the face metaphorically with this. Like, that’s a stupid thing to do. And I felt it. Like he kind of scoffed at that. And I could tell I had said, totally the wrong thing. And like six months later, I was doing that exact thing. And I did that for 20 years. And so again, I was doing things that were just not who I was, I was just taking these messages and saying, I have to do it, because that’s what it is to be a man. And that’s, you know, that’s what got me into burnout.

Angie 

So, I find it so interesting that you’ve been able to because I think I think I can probably go out on a limb and say that when you were nine years old, taking out the trash, you didn’t, you weren’t burnout, taking the trash, it was more of a symbol symbol, what it symbolized and didn’t realize that until hindsight, that was that kind of seat, I think that’s a really interesting way to kind of frame it. And that you had this kind of like propensity to just be doing the things that were kind of expected of you versus looking at wait a minute, is this something I need to be doing should be doing? Or is isn’t constructive to kind of the way I want to live?

Jim 

Yeah. And what it really was it was constructing this narrative of how do I fit in to being a man, and not necessarily right at nine years old, but that that belief started there. And then it just kept building on it. And I was this constructed version of myself, that wasn’t really myself.

Angie 

I think it’s so interesting. Anecdotally, I think it’s so interesting when like common themes present themselves to us. And this is a very good case of a common theme that was happening for years, decades that finally created this, like, combination of realizations, right? But I’ve also been having this conversation a lot lately. And I’m like, okay, what world? What is the world trying to tell me here around this idea of what are the belief systems are the rules that have been kind of handed to us and placed upon us? Do we intentionally want those or don’t want those? And are they healthy for us?

Jim 

I explore that a ton in in my book. Because what I really discovered, as I, as I dug into the, into what had happened to me, was it it was this unconscious, picking up of social rules for men, and their social rules for women, their social rules for all of us. And for men, what I what I experienced was, be in control, be successful, be strong, don’t ask for help. Don’t ever reveal your emotions, especially to another guy. And that combination of rules, if you actually sit down and like walk through those and you think like, is that possible? I don’t think so. It’s a recipe for disaster. And it certainly was for me.

Angie 

No wonder we’re all just so spun up. It’s really, it’s really interesting. So, Jim knows this, and this won’t air this will air not on the day, we’re recording it. But today is my 10 year anniversary with my husband, Jim. And as thinking this morning, about like a LinkedIn post that I also haven’t posted yet. It’s almost like I’m talking about all this stuff that you’re going to hear about after it actually happens, about kind of like almost what I have learned through 10 years of marriage, and how that kind of relates to our professional work, because it’s also intertwined. But what is so interesting is like one of the three little pieces that I kind of jotted down, as I was thinking through that is the idea of kind of our assumptions around gender roles. And the rules that we have, have, we as a society have kind of placed on that, and how it you know, in our relationship that has been one of the reasons not following those gender roles has been one of the reasons we’re so successful, because our strengths lie in varying places there instead of just forcing each of us into like what you would traditionally do, as you know, as a spouse. And I think that that’s that rolls up to the bigger message here of kind of looking at your strengths and the way that you want to do life and work as a more constructive, efficient and satisfying way to go about things versus this kind of like societal quote unquote norm.

Jim 

I love that you brought that up, Angie, because another part of my burnout story is in my personal life in my marriage. My marriage didn’t survive my burnout. And I think a lot of it is because we had adopted the traditional gender roles. I was the provider, I worked full time, she stayed home with the kids, it wasn’t good for either of us. I’m a nurturer. At heart, I really love being a parent. I love, you know, connecting with people and taking care of them. And I wasn’t supposed to be doing that. That’s not what my role was supposed to be. And her role was supposed to be. And she, you know, we’re both good at both things. She really missed being a provider and a creator. And I think that was a, that’s a part that doesn’t get talked about enough, burnout gets classified as a workplace condition. That’s what the who calls it. And it’s so much more than that.

Angie 

It’s I think it’s a life condition. And so this is perfect to now kind of get into how based on your experience with all of this, have you turned this into, you know, a methodology or a delivery mechanism to help people through it. So, this is also not something that’s like, oh, here’s a tool, you’ll be better tomorrow. It’s really a process. So, kind of how do you approach that with kind of your clients or people working through this.

Jim 

As you noted, at the top of the show, coaches often find their best niche from what they know, from personal experience. And I didn’t figure out on the way through burnout, how I got through it, it was hindsight as things often as we often learn our lessons. And what I learned after I had been out of burnout, and it actually took me probably like a year or more after I was really out of burnout to recognize that I was even out. And I started to look at how did I get out? Because there wasn’t some grand plan that I was following. I was getting some support and, you know, help with therapy and coaching. What I found was not at all what I expected, it wasn’t that I fixed my schedule, find more time with my kids change jobs, like yeah, I did all of those things. Were really what I did that was transformational was I started investing in intimate relationships, I started opening myself up to be my real self, to all the people around me. And so, my book is called expansive intimacy, how tough guys defeat burnout. Because like, I started using intimacy as a tool in every area of my life, not just with a romantic partner, which is what we traditionally think of, we make it this narrow path. I said, I’m gonna have intimacy with everybody. I didn’t say that, but I did it. And it felt so good. It’s friends that I can be intimate with, I have intimate relations with my kids in the appropriate ways to, to bring intimacy into that relationship, I have a partner like, it just changed everything. For me.

Angie 

I think it’s so interesting, because you guys can’t see Jim. But his book is sitting behind him. And it’s, as we’re sitting here talking, I also love that it makes it almost makes me a little uncomfortable. And I think that that’s probably part of the charm of all of it. Because I’m sitting here looking at expansive intimacy on a book cover, while we’re talking about your burnout in the professional life. And that word intimacy is so often attached to our romantic relationships, that we forget that we’re permitted, and we should have meaningful, I think could be the safer word that people don’t go, oh, I can’t be intimate with my co workers, you can have a meaningful relationship with them. And that’s much more kind of fulfilling to the overall picture. And over the last three years, I think that that’s something we’re all craving. And a lot of people don’t realize how disconnected we’ve become. And I think it was starting before, you know, in the before days, we were still becoming increasingly more, more and more disconnected. And I think it’s just a really interesting concept to say, you know, when you’re going through burnout, first of all, you don’t realize you’re going you’re you’re becoming burnout until you’re there, which I think is one of the hard things because at that point, you’re pretty broken, and you got to put yourself back together. And there’s some practical pieces to that reducing the schedule, exercise and some of that stuff. But it goes so much more of around this kind of like emotional, physical idea of fulfilling yourself through the relationships and what that gives us.

Jim 

I saw something yesterday, I just want to lift it up again, because Trevor Noah, I think, is a genius. He’s, he’s smart. He’s funny, he’s so relatable. And sometimes he’ll tackle a really big topic. And he had a between the scenes segment on his show, where he talked about men and intimacy. He was actually talking about something that was trending for a little while on Twitter about this concept of a right to sex. And the way he put it together was that we so often conflate sex and intimacy that it can be uncomfortable to see the title and think like, oh my god, we’re talking about these things that aren’t about intimacy, but it’s intimacy. And what he’s who he talks about, and he’s also like, like I am in the book talking about men and how we mistake because we mistake sex for intimacy, there are things that we want in life that we don’t give ourselves permission for, because we don’t think we can have them outside of that one relationship or if you’re polyamorous multiple relationships. And there’s one moment in that segment where he’s, he’s making his point he’s saying, talking about sex workers and how sometimes sex workers say men will show up in a hotel room or wherever, and they’ll say, would you just talk to me? Or would you just hold me? And he says, you know, men sometimes just want to be held, and the audience laughs And it’s this uncomfortable, like, tense, sort of Lafley want it to be a joke. And it’s not. Because that’s not manly. Like, I just want someone to hold me. Oh, my God, how could you say that? If you’re a guy.

Angie 

And especially, I feel like American culture really perpetuates the idea that men and I love that we’re talking about men, I talk a lot with other women about women, the challenges women face in their professional lives. And I think that this is definitely carryover applicable. But I think it’s so interesting, because like, there are very specific challenges that we face as the varying genders and the, the assumptions or rules kind of placed on us. And I think what’s so interesting about this is, it comes to that kind of idea that vulnerability, we look at vulnerability as a weakness. And it isn’t, it’s actually can be very, very much a strength because it can lead to that intimacy and a deeper level of connection than you can get if you just have to put up that facade and go on the tough guy, and I can’t lay no, I’m not going to break down any kind of walls. And I think as we get into some of the team leader stuff I want to touch on that can really, really create a roadblock to success because you aren’t willing to be open to those relationships.

Jim 

Absolutely. And the subtitle of my book is how tough guys defeat burnout. And the tough guys is in quotes. 

Angie 

Perfect lip.

Jim 

The idea of what a tough guy is because a tough guy in our modern culture takes it on the chin. Like we know that version of tough guy. And it’s not working so well. What’s tougher is, especially if you’re one of those guys who’s like I’m a tough guy, just take it on the chin, I don’t let anything get to me, is to be vulnerable. That’s hard. I went through a process of over a period of years of, instead of holding everything inside saying like, Okay, I’m gonna start sharing this stuff. It was really, it required me to be a lot tougher.

Angie 

It’s funny, because I think yesterday, and I would, I would guess it was probably at the exact moment that you were tuned into Trevor Noah, which by the way, we’re going to link that in the show notes. Everybody, along with the what I’m about to talk about is I was listening to a blink, total squirrel for a second, if you have not come across an app called Blinkist. It’s awesome. Go check it out. It’s basically podcast meets cliff notes. And again, if you’re under the age of 30, you’re going was a CliffsNotes. But hey, there you go. Go go google that. And it’s a book called remarkable. And they talk exactly about the vulnerability piece and how we look at it as a weakness instead of a strength. And I’m curious, from like, a practical perspective, what advice do you have for people who are like in this place, maybe they know they’re burnt out, or they see it coming around the corner, they’re overwhelmed. They’re struggling to be vulnerable, and to create that those healthy, intimate relationships, you know, what advice do you give them?

Jim 

I’m gonna show not tell. So, I got an example from last week, I got a text message from the wife of a client of mine, CEO, founder of a very male dominated industry business. And I’m thinking she says, you know, do you have a couple minutes for a call? And I’m like, oh, no, like, that’s never a good thing. Like the wife of your client is texting you in the middle of the afternoon. And I’m like, yeah, sure. Give me a call. And I picked up the phone, and she says, I just want to I’m gonna change the name here. I just want to tell you, we had our all company meeting two weeks ago, and Dave got up in front of the whole company. And he told this story of the most difficult time in his ownership of the business in his career, where he was coming out of bankruptcy. He was going through, you know, these are some other personal challenges. And the whole tone of the room change. You saw everybody open up, you saw everybody bond with him in that instance, because they put him on this pedestal, they think he’s bulletproof, he’s unapproachable. And he revealed his humanity to everybody. And the whole tone of what’s going on in that business has shifted, because he was able to tell a vulnerable story. And so that like, to me it’s storytelling is one of the most powerful tools that we have in our toolkit and saying, Okay, what’s the story that I can tell that’s a little bit beyond my comfort zone, to start opening up as a human and connecting other people with me.

Angie 

And it’s the word there that I was in my head was the cumin, we are all humans. And I think unfortunately, classes have come into play where like, some humans are valued other more than others. But at the end of the day, we are we are all in this world together. And I think when you create the sense of relatability, like Dave did, that’s when people look at you and go, oh, you’re not untouchable, you’re one of me, you’re just in a different spot in life. And I think that that creates a much healthier level of respect, commitment, but and motivation also just even down to like a team level, you’ve just endears your staff to you in a way that now they’re going to be, you know, more productive and interested and motivated in helping that kind of bottom line. So, there’s very practical outcome that can happen there. In addition to the kind of like mental and emotional component,

Jim 

I learned an expression 10 or 15 years ago, that stuck with me, ever since that every one of us is carrying around at least one secret that if you knew it, it would break your heart. That to me is humanity. And when when Dave or other CEOs, leaders open up themselves to their real humanity, it makes them trust more trustworthy. Because if you if you know anybody in the world, and I’m talking to you, Angie, and any any of the listeners, you know, anybody who’s never gone through a struggle, could you introduce them to me, please, because I would love to meet likewise.

Angie 

I would like to meet them too.

Jim 

Yeah, it’s normal. Burnout is a normal thing. Stress is a normal thing, fear, worry, shame. All of that is normal.

Angie 

I think that one of the interesting things well, we’ve heard this cliche, that cliche you’ve seen it be kind because you know, never know what somebody else is going through. And I think no one is perfect. And no one’s had a perfect life that if there’s a certainty other than death and taxes, there it is. And I think what’s what the variation there is that we all look at different things differently. And so one person is challenged, somebody else might think, Well, wait, that’s your, that’s your big deal. But to them it is. And so I think having an understanding and compassion and sympathy and even an empathy, if you can actually relate to it is a really important aspect to helping all of us live in a little bit more of a, you know, did we say balanced life? Are we pushing ourselves? Yeah, we’re not pushing ourselves to that level of burnout so much.

Jim 

And you also mentioned a word just now, that was a key part of my story, and I think is a key part of the puzzle for a lot of people who go and get into burnout. And that’s perfection. Perfectionism is false. It’s, and I think our leadership culture, we expect these leaders to be perfect that they have all the answers that they don’t have any struggles or problems. And that sets them up for failure. Because if they buy into that narrative, and there’s a lot of reasons why they feel like they might need to, to, you know, to not show weakness in particular, I think is a big one for guys. We get into perfectionism, which is just a an invitation to shame because we’re gonna fail, and then we feel like I didn’t do it, right. So, I’m gonna work harder to be perfect again the next time and that’s a burnout cycle. It’s a shame burnout cycle. I write about that in the book as well, that shame is such a powerful force in creating burnout and keeping people in it.

Angie 

Perfectionism. I’m just gonna put it out there. And I’m just gonna say it super direct, like it is. Perfectionism is a weakness, not a strength.

Jim 

Mm hmm. Amen. Hallelujah. 

Angie 

Yeah, all the things 80% 80% is good enough for everybody. Because, you know, and there’s there’s a, there’s a range here, depending on the situation, if you’re a surgeon 80% ain’t good enough. However, in most of our in most situations, especially in life, we hold ourselves to a standard that you’re just never going to meet. And if you can temper that, you will save yourself a whole lot of grief and also a whole lot of time.

Jim 

The energy of getting that extra 20% When you don’t actually need it is it’s so expensive.

Angie 

Yeah, it isn’t worth the ROI. It’s also like cover letters. That’s just a funny anecdote. So let’s, let’s talk about the letter. Exactly. Do I still do a cover letter? That’s a whole pot, different podcast, Jim. So, let’s talk a little bit about the book. I love that it’s been peppered in throughout but I would love to just to kind of hear your experience and finally getting to put this out there to the world. And what people are gonna get out of it when they go pick it up.

Jim 

Yeah, thanks for that invitation. When I think about the book and The whole journey of it, it’s kind of a blur. I wrote the book in less than a year, I’d been thinking about writing a book for quite a while I had multiple ideas. And I remember having a distinct conversation with a friend of mine, who’s a literary agent about four years ago, and I first started my business, I said, I want to write a book. And she said, wait a few years. And when I did, it was the right time, I’d done some work about a year and a half ago with somebody around some branding. And I got super clear as my LinkedIn profile suggests, of what do I do? What is my niche, and I was like, oh, I’m a burnout coach, for man for organizations. And then I knew like, oh, the, the story that I want to tell, is in service of being vulnerable to my own story, to model some things to crack open the hey, it’s okay. When we go through this, but also, I hadn’t seen any resources out there that were specific to men’s burnout at seems really fantastic resources that spoke to women’s experience of burnout or millennials experience of burnout. And I wanted to take something that I was seeing in a lot of my clients, and start to put something together. So, what people can expect in the book is I do a bunch of stories, I tell my own story, I tell a lot of other men’s stories, because I want people to see the relatability of this issue. So, defining burnout, because it’s a little fuzzy for a lot of people. So, walk through a lot of that. But actually, as I was writing the book, my developmental editor gave me a comment one day, I had, he said, what’s the role of stigma in the staff that I was quoting? And I was like, oh, I don’t know. It’s a great question. I went out and started doing some research. And that very quickly led me into shame. I was like, shame is such a huge part of burnout. For me, it was, and I think it is for a lot of guys. And I’ve interviewed a lot of guys around that. And it is like, those rules I commented on before, be successful, be strong, don’t ask for help that reveal your emotions. If we don’t adhere to those rules, we’re labeled, we’re called names. They’re all in the category of weakness, and that’s not masculine. And it creates shame. And so we’re running away from that all the time. And sometimes running ourselves in circles into burnout. 

Angie 

The two biggest fears we all have, if you really get down to the root of it is that we’re not good enough, or we won’t be accepted. And that’s where this all comes from. And I think it’s just so like, beautifully ironic in a way that the very topic we’re speaking of had no resources out there, because it is a taboo topic, no one wants to address. So, who was going to write the book on men’s burnout, because we shouldn’t talk about men’s burnout, yet there was very much needs to be talked about men’s burnout. So, very glad you fulfilled that niche. And it really does come down to that idea of I won’t be accepted because I’m not masculine enough, or I’m not good enough, because I’m not masculine enough and breaking down that stigma, just like your development or editor said.

Jim 

And even once I had pushed myself over the the edge to say, I’m going to be the guy who writes about burnout. When I got the invitation in that process to write about shame. I was like, oh, no, not me. I don’t want to write about shame. Talk about topics that are not manly.

Angie 

Yeah, who and who wants to go compete with Brene? Brown? 

Jim 

Yeah, but I mean, huge inspiration. I was like, my book is sitting next to her book in my local bookstore. I was like, Oh my God, that’s the one. 

Angie 

It’s in a way she she may have kind of pioneered a path. Oh, yeah, to make shame as a topic a little less taboo to speak of which left room to therefore speak specifically around shame and men and the vulnerabilities and all the things that kind of culminate into this burnout. Totally.

Jim 

So, I started with a chapter on shame. And then it became a section of the book because there’s just so much to explore that project, right, an entire second book on men’s shame and how it manifests in all kinds of ways. What I saw that was really interesting dynamic that okay. So, burnout was a big factor that got me into shame. I was running away from these, you know, Barb’s that I might get thrown if I wasn’t manly enough. But once I got into burnout, it kept me in because like, I can’t say I’m burned out as a guy that’s shameful. That’s even doubly shameful. And eventually, it broke me. I was. I was literally laid out by the state of burnout that I was in and I had to start sharing, I just had to start talking about it. Therapists, support groups, mentors, friends, eventually, you know, lots of people. And what I discovered this is how I discovered expansive intimacy was at one I shared my shame and this is a teaching that I learned from Brene Brown, some of her books, when I shared my shame, instead of getting the rejection that we fear. What I got was except that I got seen, and I got, like, oh, yeah, I’ve been through something like that, too. And I clicked and we created a bond. And I was like, oh, now I can be myself, I can talk about what’s real. And that’s where expensive intimacy got born. 

Angie 

I just got a little bit of the chills because basically, it’s at the very, in a very, like, at its very core, it’s the things that we feel, are our biggest weaknesses typically end up being the biggest opportunity to connect. So ,going all the way back to that idea of how can we be more intimate? If you’re actually if you’re vulnerable, vulnerable, it will perpetuate a much more positive cycle than the negative reaction that we tend to make up in our heads. 

Jim 

Yeah, exactly. There’s so much fear sitting there. And if we just kind of prick that balloon of fear, and allow ourselves to take the risk, which chapter 12 of the book is my, my one semi prescriptive part of the book, because everybody needs instructions and a model. And that’s what we love as a society. So, you teased it out a little bit like there’s no quick fix here. I’m not offering that because there just isn’t one for such a complex issue is burnout. But taking risks, to reveal ourselves to people in ways that open up our ability to be seen and to see each other, and then have all these ways that we can be with each other in relationships, we can talk about our fears, we can talk about our stresses, we can celebrate our joys, which again, not manly to be joyful, but I’m joyful. And so, you know, yeah. So, that there’s there’s a little bit of prescription in chapter 12. But it’s really ultimately comes down to taking risks to be yourself.

Angie 

Open up. It’s worth it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, heck, yeah. All right. So, we’re gonna shift gears. And speaking of like, practical little pieces of advice and prescriptions. We’re gonna do a little let’s do a call. I don’t know if I should call this a game anymore. We’ve got to figure it out. But I call it rapid fire recommend recommendations. It isn’t really a game and it’s not really rapid. So, if you’ve got a suggestion on what I should really call this after experiencing it, you can let me know Jim. But the first question is, we just kind of get to know you and how you tick is what’s your most memorable travel destination?

Jim 

Ireland, I flew there with my then fiance to go see you, too. We spent a week in Ireland, we drove around the country. We stayed actually at Bondo in the edges boutique hotel in Dublin drove around and we came back to Dublin and we went to this epic concert 20 kilometers outside of Dublin. That was there’s like 100,000 people on the grounds of this Scottish Irish ruins this castle. And it was like an all day festival with the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Cold Play and you to who is playing on Irish soil for the first time in like five years, and it was unbelievable.

Angie 

Every Gen XOR who listens to this show is seething with jealousy right now. And I feel like that might have been the same year I saw them and the chili peppers at Bonnaroo, which that’s a whole nother story too. Anyway, don’t go to Bonnaroo after you’re 22. That would be my lesson there. So, I am excited about the next one. Because we already have one great book recommendation expensive intimacy, which will be linked in the show notes. But I would love a second reading recommendation for everybody out there for you.

Jim 

Oh, it’s really hard to not share my partner’s book that she just wrote called The spotlight of love, which is fantastic tools and insights for couples, because I’ve learned so much from my partner. And so I’ll put that as a pin. But one of the books that has been so helpful for me over the years I’ve read it. I probably read it every two or three years is the Alchemist by Paulo. Coelho.

Angie 

I love that. And it is when you need to read it like every year you do something different. It’s a simple story. We get something different out of it every time you read, enrich.

Jim 

It’s beautiful and it’s profound.

Angie 

It’s you’re so weird. I was reading another book the other day and there was a two or three line quote from the alchemist in this book and it made me think I need to go read the alchemist again. And you just reinforced the fact that that will be the thing I take off my shelf next.

Jim 

Can I give one more bonus? Of course you can awesome. The book of awakening by Mark Niebo which is a gorgeous collection of stories meditations that are offered as one per day. And this man is such an incredible writer and so, so skilled at bringing forth spirit. It’s one of my favorite practices is to read a page out of the book of awakening by Mark naipo Every day.

Angie 

Oh, I love when we got collections and a lot of that is new to me other than the alchemist, but that was a reinforcement to read it again. So that’s a good list. I love it. And while we’re on good resources, do you have a podcast you want to throw out? That’s great to listen to.

Jim 

I’d love to throw out a couple in the realm of men’s work. Shana James. Well, I’m gonna forget exactly what the title of her podcast is. I’m sorry for that Shana. She has a podcast that is she’s a fantastic coach for men, especially around intimacy and relationships. And so she’s she’s got a terrific podcast, Shana Sha Na, James. I’m also a big fan of the mankind podcast hosted by the mankind project, Brandon Clift and boysson. Hodgson, they do amazing work. So, you always have amazing guests on there.

Angie 

I love people who are like, yeah, you need all these things. Yes, those are great. And we’ll we’ll find Shane as podcast and and link it here to everybody, because you all are going to the show notes. Because there’s like notable short of like a dozen links you all need, especially if you’re a man out there, trying to figure out how to have a better life. Jim’s your guy.

Jim 

So many good resources out there for guys as well. I think there’s we need to make them get them to the surface.

Angie 

Exactly. And yeah, they’re becoming a little bit more readily available. And of course, this is a show about Mondays. So, what’s the first word that comes to mind when I say Monday?

Jim 

Opportunity, which is not at all the word that I used to use either. So, enjoy and look forward to what I get to do in my work these days. And that was that was not always the case. And so like my, my work is now about opportunity. And maybe possibility would would have been an even better word.

Angie 

Well, that you have to just like you got it. You just got bonus book recommendations. You can have a bonus word for Mondays,

Jim 

I’m so usually not the person who asks for more. So, this is great to do this. Yes. Okay.

Angie 

Bring it on, bring it on, Jim. And if, if you’re out there, and you’re like, oh, man, my word for Monday is dread. Or my word for Monday is Sunday scaries. We have an email that comes out weekly for that there’s a shameless plug. But also, if if your word for Monday is anything less than a neutral outlook on it, do something about it. That was my recommendation, I’m not going to tell you what necessarily you should do, because it depends on how you look at at the start to the week. But if you’re really not looking at them favorably, that means it’s taking energy from you before you even start. So, opportunity and possibility are two great ways to kind of or two great perspectives and goals to look at Mondays. So Jim, as we start to kind of wind things down here. I want to make sure everybody can follow along with you find the book, how do they how do they track your journey? How do they buy expensive intimacy?

Jim 

My business is called the Centered Coach. That’s where you also would find me the centered coach.com is really the one stop shop to find anything about me about the book, you can find my LinkedIn, their blog posts that I’ve written over the years. And if you’re ever interested in working with me, there’s lots of information about that too.

Angie 

And you can find Jim through my network on LinkedIn as well, we connected just before the show, and also again on no more Mondays dot info, where you’re going to have no less than a dozen links to all kinds of really good things. And we’re going to give you all one more before Jim and I say goodbye. So, I want to know, what’s your number one piece of advice for what everyone out there can do to get one step closer to career satisfaction.

Jim 

My number one piece of advice for people who want to get to career satisfaction, is just keep asking yourself and answering really honestly, what do you want? We don’t ask ourselves that question often enough. And when we get really honest with ourselves about it, we can say it’s not this, it’s that or it’s just a shift in something even.

Angie 

And I’ll add I’m gonna add two little pieces to that to just enhance I think enhance it is if you’re going to allow yourself to be honest with where you’re at in your career or your life. If you’re gonna allow yourself to be honest with with it, you have to be okay with the answers.

Jim 

Yeah, I’ll add something to it, which is allow the dreams that might come up in what you want to be a possibility.

Angie 

And sometimes, knowing what you don’t want is a is a more constructive start to things than you think it is just going back to your kind of opening story about how you didn’t want to be in a shirt and tie and then went and did the very thing that you knew you didn’t want to do. I bet you confirmed that’s what you didn’t want. So, you can kind of start to flip that on its head. But I think if you’re if you allow yourself to be honest with what you want, and you’re okay with the results, you can begin taking steps towards obtaining it. Great piece of advice, Jim, as we kind of close this out. There’s been so this is such a great conversation. It’s different than a lot of conversations I’ve gotten to have and I hope of all of the men out there listening will really just kind of like tune into this message that Jim has that it’s okay to be vulnerable. It’s okay to have intimate relationships with people. It’s okay to not be the manliest of men out there. And a lot of good will come from sharing your story and opening up to the people around you personally and professionally.

Jim 

In the only thing I’d like to enhance that with is that you are actually a manlier. Man, you get to hold on to all the traditional tough guy stuff and bring in the new tough guy stuff. Yes. 

Angie 

And yeah, so why would you want all of that best of both worlds? Exactly. Jim, this has been so good. I could just like pepper you with questions, and we could pull in little anecdotes all day long. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if like John, you’re like the next person that gets two episodes. But I’m so glad that you decided to join us. Thank you for joining the no more Mondays movement. Congratulations on the book, everybody go buy it. And until next time, Jim, thank you for sharing your wisdom and being vulnerable with us.

Jim 

And you, thank you so much for having me. And if you ever want to have me back again, I’d love it because this was super fun.

Angie 

Yeah, totally fun. We always love hearing from people who have successfully navigated career and life crossroads, charted a path to success and fulfillment. Jim is one of those and he’s helping people do the same. And we love that even more tons of great practical and aspirational advice here. So, I hope all of you out there took some notes. We’ll re listen we’ll grab all of Jim’s resources and tune into all the great advice he has to offer. And for all of you out there listening, I would love for you to subscribe to No More Mondays leave us a five star rating because Jim and I are the two coolest people on Earth right now. And it’s a huge help as we continue to inspire people to have a more fulfilling life everywhere with these kinds of great stories. Leave us comments, feedbacks guest suggestions, grab the show notes at no more Mondays dot info and I will see you next week when we drop another episode of No More Mondays. Thanks for joining us for another episode of No More Mondays. Tune in next week as we bring you more insights and actions to help you improve your professional life and find career satisfaction. Don’t forget, visit us online at No More Mondays dot info for all the details show notes and recommendations from this episode. No More Mondays we drop new episodes every Wednesday. No More Mondays is brought to you by Career Benders, Inc in partnership with executive producer Jane Durkee. For more information about career coaching, resume writing, personal branding, recruiting, and entrepreneurship coaching services, visit our website at career benders dot com.