Happiness by Choice: A Google Leader’s Perspective on Life Beyond Hard Work with Eric Nehrlich

Transcript:

Angie 

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the No More Mondays podcast. I hope you know me; I am your host, Angie Callen. And if you’ve tuned in before, you know I love talking about career crossroads, and we’re going to dig into it today in a really big way. Because here’s a reality check. We all face career crossroads, no matter how old we are, no matter how experienced we are, no matter how far up that corporate ladder we go, everybody comes to a career crossroads, even somebody who had a C title somewhere called Google. And that’s where Eric Nehrlich comes into the picture. From the burnout that came from leadership during Google’s enormous growth to dropping out of a Ph. D program. And multiple functional pivots in his career, Eric is the poster child for navigating these kinds of crossroads. And what is even better as he’s channeling all of that experience into executive and leadership coaching, and he wrote a book called, you have a choice beyond hard work to meaningful impact. And you know how much I am a big fan of that idea that you have a choice and taking ownership of that. So we’re gonna get into some really meaningful stuff today. I’m happy that you’re here. And I am very excited about this conversation. Let’s not delay it any more. Let’s get him on air. Eric, welcome to no more Mondays.

Eric 

Thanks, Angie, I’m really excited to be here. And looking forward to the conversation.

Angie 

Yeah, I am, too. And one of the things that has gotten me excited about this is I really appreciate and respect how open you are about talking about the challenges that you’ve had in your career and the crossroads that you face, especially at such a high level of function and even visibility, right. And I think that’s something that people who are more seasoned, experienced and higher up in their careers can really, really struggle with. So I think it would be really great to kind of explain some of those to everybody and get into the story of your professional journey and how you’ve kind of gotten here. So kind of, I would say, bring us up to speed and give us some of the backstory.

Eric 

Oo, that’s a big question. I mean, the brief version of it is I started off as a physics student, I went on to grad school thinking that’s what I wanted to do with my life, become a physics professor, I then realized that becoming a professor of physics require being a lot smarter, a lot more dedicated than I was because I was busy playing volleyball instead of studying. So, eventually, I dropped out of grad school, as you mentioned. But it was okay cuz it was 1998. I knew how to program computers. And this was the.com. Era. So people were like, Yeah, you don’t forget recruiters, here’s some money. I did that for about 10 years, programming computers that a bunch of different startups here in Silicon Valley. And I guess, the pivot point there was being at a company that went bankrupt, despite having a really good engineering team. And that was really confusing to me, like the engineering teams delivering everything is supposed to, and went bankrupt. There’s something here, I’m missing. Turns out, there’s this whole really important thing about running a company called business and making money. And I wasn’t really aware of that as an engineer. So I’m like, oh, that’s doesn’t matter. I’ll just do my job. And I’ll be fine.

Angie 

As somebody who also went to engineering school, and then all of a sudden was, whose eyes were open to the world of business, I kind of had that exact same reaction, right? It’s like, oh, there is more than just this, like nitty gritty design and technology and as as a civil engineer, so it’s a little bit a little bit different, because you can see the real world application, but I had that exact same experience of like, oh, there’s business.

Eric 

Yeah, absolutely. So that was kind of a pivot point for me, in my career, realize, like, oh, yeah, engineering isn’t worth anything if you have terrible business ventures, and if you have terrible leadership. So I like to call that my origin story, as an executive coach, like having a terrible CEO is like, Oh, this is this is not good. I need to understand this business and leadership thing better. So, I actually went back for another degree at that point in technology management to learn more of this language of business, learn more the language of leadership and management, and then joined Google, as I actually joined Google on the finance side as a revenue forecaster, and which was a weird pivot. Most people in my life are like, What are you doing? But one of my professors in my master’s program said, if you want to understand how executives think, you have to understand the money, and I was like, Oh, I don’t understand the money at all. And then this job came across my radar that was a revenue forecasting position. And they were looking for somebody with quantitative analysis skills, which I had, because my physics background, somebody that understood software, which I did, because I’ve been an engineer. And so it I was like, Boy, I bet you if I have to forecast and analyze the revenue, I’ve got to understand the buddy.

Angie 

Job because it wants these these two very interesting and you Unique, you know, at this time, those were two unique things that not a lot of people have probably a little bit more mainstream now. But like, we’re kind of setting up this story of like, did the physics PhD track student ever expect to become an executive coach public? published author, right?

Eric 

Absolutely not. Absolutely not, though, it’s, it’s kind of funny looking back at my career, because there’s just no way I could have predicted how it turned out. I just kept on pursuing things that looked interesting. And, and where I could learn something that was interesting to me and just pursuing learning and meant that I ended up in this position, these positions, which I could never have mapped my way there in advance, but ended up being really preferred for me once I got there. A couple years into my time. So the other thing about joining Google was I joined in September of 2008, which, if you may remember, was when the world was sliding into the Great Recession, which meant the executives Google really cared about money for the first time, there just wasn’t money falling from the sky, they had to think about revenue, they had to think about profit. And here’s

Angie 

you are the mission critical guide of that whole operation? Absolutely.

Eric 

So, six months into my time at Google, I’m standing in front of Eric Schmidt Larry and Sergey, and the CFO. And then they’re asking, So what’s gonna happen with revenue? Hey, what’s gonna happen? The economy tell it it talks about how much money we’re gonna make this fall? I’m like, What the hell is happening here? No, yeah, exactly. It’s like, oh, so yeah, my professors, right, executives really care about the money. And I got a lot of visibility, I got a lot of opportunity to being really important meetings and provide my perspective. But it was also a lot of pressure, I was working insane hours trying to figure out what was going on, try to get up to speed, taking out as much as I could. And always, always, always there being more to do that I could handle. Like, I remember in 2009, I think the first holiday that I didn’t work a full day was Thanksgiving. So it was just I was just going nonstop that whole year. And

Angie 

it wasn’t that you didn’t work, you just didn’t work a full day. I also have to just tell you, it’s really funny, you spray something the exact same way I did, because I transferred from Boston to Colorado through an engineering company I worked for, and I literally tell people I started work. In September, it was like September 8 of oh eight, and in the civil engineering world crashed with the Great Recession, right. So I still have a really big like imprint in my head of where I was, at that point in time and how it changed my career trajectory, just how this became a crossroads. It was like a crossroads in the making, in a way because it really pushed you into the forefront in in this mission critical role at Google that I’m sure helped helped set some rungs up on the ladder, right? Absolutely.

Eric 

Yeah, it definitely set up some rungs on a ladder. I mean, I’m standing in front of the top executives at Google and working meeting regularly with VPs of product and engineering and sales and talking about the business on a regular basis. The tricky part for me was that I didn’t know how to say no. And so whenever people there’s so much mission critical work happening, I wanted to grab it all, I felt this was a once in a lifetime kind of opportunity for me. And so I just took on more and more and more. And is probably real estate sort of project tests. No, there’s a, there’s an end that happens when you do that, which is called burnout. And that’s where I ended up a few years later. So in my case that manifested is after a few too many 100 hour weeks, I got to the end of the year got to Christmas. I’m like, Okay, I actually get a week off. I’m gonna spend some time with my family and get to enjoy myself. And instead my body was like, Nope, you’re done. And I woke up with 103 degree fever. I was lying in bed for a week, basically unable to move because my body had just had nothing left. I was just completely wrecked. It

Angie 

was literally like running, you’re running on empty. And the minute the minute you gave it space to go into a rest and recovery. And then recovery mode. It did isn’t it? I find it so interesting how there is a physical, there are physical indicators of burnout. And many times, we don’t pay attention to them as they’re creeping in. And it takes something massive like oh, I have a week off and I’m probably going to now end up sleeping to kind of really create that wake up call.

Eric 

Yeah, it’s I don’t know why the image is coming to mind. For me. It’s like the movie The Blues Brothers. They’re driving the car. They’re trying to do all these crazy car chases. And they finally stopped it just the whole car collapses and it falls apart in one thing and that’s kind of what it felt like. So yeah, I ignored all the signs I burned out. And the point that was interesting for me was that I was like I did push you that hard because I’d been up for promotion and they’re like, gotta take this off. Do this, do this, do this, do this. Like I’ve got to do it all. I’m gonna get promoted. This is like my chance by chance to shine. And lying in bed there. I’m like, okay, so I don’t have time and energy instead of my family. I haven’t seen my friends in a year. I’ve literally done nothing but work for like three years. All my friends are like, What happened to you? You’re like a workaholic. I’m like, I’m not a workaholic. Like, they’re like, Yeah, but you work all the time. That’s kind of what? Like, yeah, but I’m not addicted to work. Like, I just, it’s just this one job, it’s gonna, it’s gonna pass, I’ll get through it. Like, it’s been three years. And I had it as thought to myself, like, what am I doing? What, like, what am I doing? And is this promotion worth it? Like, why am I sacrificing my whole life for this promotion? And for the first time, in my life, a little voice cooked by headset, like, maybe you could do something different. Like that, that feels wrong. If

Angie 

you have to understand that that’s like an earth-shattering concept to people who go through, like, I would say, traditional upbringings and very like traditional, like technical education is right, we are taught to think a certain way. Google literally teaches you to think a certain way. And and even though they want to innovate, it’s still like thinking about changing your life path and doing life differently than that very traditional. linear path is is huge. For people who have been conditioned the way, you know, a lot of us of our age, and those types of Education’s end up being conditioned.

Eric 

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I had to find myself is a high achiever, since like, you know, kindergarten, maybe, maybe I didn’t define myself, Mom define me, we all get into that, because this is not a therapy session.

Angie 

Came out with that sticker. But it’s okay. We are like sometimes I say play therapists on TV, because there is a huge mental component to these things, right. And so this is, I would say this in the in the career crossroads and the multiples that you face. This was the big one where now now the C word is going to come into place choice really becomes obvious. Absolutely.

Eric 

My whole life. It’s like, do whatever the authority figure tells you, first parents, the teachers, the managers, the bosses, it’s like, whatever they tell you, you do it and you exceed expectations. If they say jump this high, you jump this high, because that’s how you earn everything. respect, love, blogging, safety, all of it comes from performance. And yeah, this was the first time I left I was like, Well, what if I, you know, did it do that, like I had this rule in my head, I must do everything my manager says and do it above and beyond. I was like, what if I did it? I had never, ever considered that possibility before. So, like, yeah, this idea, you have a choice. I talked about this as my epiphany moment, like, wait, I could, you know, not do that. Felt weird. And the key was realizing, yes, there would be consequences. And in my case, I went in in January, and I hit my first one, one, I’m like, I am not working hard that hard anymore. I cannot keep this pace. She’s like, if you can’t handle the work, I’m gonna find somebody that can like, Oh, okay. If you can’t handle the work, that promotion is out the door, you you know, this is what it takes to be promoted, like, okay. And that’s what happened. She took away half my team, she slashed by performance rating. And all the consequences I had feared, had come true. I had failed. And

Angie 

we like to believe so much that when we make like, we play out those scenarios, right? We’re analytical people, you play out those scenarios, and you go, Okay, this is the worst case scenario. Unlikely to play out. But if the worst-case scenario plays out, can I accept it? And you’re sitting here say, look, facing it? Right? Oh, absolutely. laid out? Yeah. Yeah,

Eric 

it played out exactly. As I feared by worst case scenario. I had been dubbed as somebody that can’t handle the work. And there’s, and it was weird because it was like, that didn’t feel terrible. It just kind of felt good. I’m like, Oh, wait, you mean, I can now work 40 or 50 hours a week instead of 100? Because they took away

Angie 

like you were liberated. Right? Which is, which is so funny to think because you would I like I would have expected the reaction to that to be what we have obviously thought it would be that the came out of the womb being marked High Achiever now has been slashed down to half their worth. And there’s a freakout moment there. But I think because the maybe because the subconscious doors of I could do something different had already opened. Now there’s almost a catalyst or a clue that you’re on the track. It was probably a relief. Right? You had a little bit of liberation.

Eric 

Absolutely. I mean, let’s be honest, there was a there was a freakout moment for a week. There was some freaking out happening for probably a couple of three weeks. steer that time. But as I settled, as I settled into it, I’m like, it did feel freeing and liberating was like, wait, you know, instead of working all the time, I’m gonna go learn snowboarding, the spray. Instead of, you know, working all the time, I’m gonna go ride my bike and go spend time with my friends. And I was like, Oh, this is, yeah, this thing called life. Yeah, Turtle life is really fun. It really,

Angie 

really, it really can be if you’re intentional about it, and you make the choice to prioritize and get these things to align. And sometimes it takes a big misalignment to wake up. And sometimes that wake up has to come as an external force of the we won’t dog on her and call her name’s boss who decided to, you know, cut you down to size instead of seeing the value that she would get out of, you know, something else, right. But that is sometimes that wake up call has to come from like the rug being pulled out from under you to realize you’re in misalignment, so that, then you can make the choice to get in alignment.

Eric 

Yeah, and, you know, I don’t actually want to criticize my manager, like, she was like, if you if you you’re struggling, and the way I can help you with your struggle is give it gives you less work. So that’s what she did. And, you know, it turned out that is what I need that so

Angie 

So and, and you have to think about her in the whole ecosystem. She’s, she’s got frameworks she’s got to stick to so we, you know, no ill will, this kind of ended up going the way it needed to, because I love it. I love something you said earlier. And to me this, this plays a big a big role in, in, in a in how the Crossroads shifted was how you hadn’t really mapped your way to your career to that point, right? You hadn’t really mapped it out. And everything kind of worked really well, as far as you know, landing in these perfect places until it wasn’t perfect anymore. And that’s where intention and decision and and this is and really getting in tune with what if I can do something different. began a different now I’m going to create a little bit more of an intentional roadmap instead of just letting the stopping points stack up as they will. Right. So that’s like a pit that’s like the pivotal piece of that career crossroads to me.

Eric 

Yeah, absolutely. I’d very much been like, opportunistic throughout my career, like, oh, even dropping out of grad school wasn’t, I didn’t really intentionally do it. It was more that a friend of mine, who I knew from college was like, hey, I need somebody can prove your computers. You look like you’re struggling. You want to come work for me. So it was like, Okay, sure. But it wasn’t like I went and looked for a job. It was like, it just appeared and I took it. And that’s kind of one thing after another until this kind of Crossroads moment where it’s like, oh, yeah, what am I going to do now? Because obviously at that point, I’d lost the trust to a manager. And I was like, I need a new job. Actually, unfortunately, I did get one more lucky moment, which was later that year, one of the VPS I’ve been working with, as with the revenue stuff, I was looking for a chief of staff, and he was like, Hey, I hear you might be looking for something new. And I said, yeah, he’s like, What have you my Chief of Staff? I’m like, What the hell’s a Chief of Staff? He’s like, you know, I don’t know. But I need somebody to help me run my business. You know, my business. Come help me. So that’s kind of how I got that job. So people are coming to me sometimes, like, how have you co Chief of Staff? I’m like, I don’t think I have advice on that one. I’m not the right person.

Angie 

Don’t ask me. I did it. But I’m not quite sure how. But it is also nice that you got to leave on a higher note. Right. So you got one more opportunity. And I’m curious, when like, when did the real decision to intentionally say it’s time to walk away from from Google? Because in case y’all don’t know, this is not a small stakes situation to decide to leave? Right. So when like, really? When did when did you know it was it was time? Yeah. So

Eric 

let me quickly fast forward here. Yeah. So I became Chief of Staff in 2012. And actually stuck with that role for over six years. And part of the reason I did that is the VP I was working with was just an amazing leader, an amazing guy. Conscientious, thoughtful, intentional, and respectful. That was like, Okay, I’ve had enough bad managers at this point that like, I know, this is a good one. I’m not leaving it, like I’m just gonna stay to stay by his side. And

Angie 

so great, great exposure and almost mentorship for you to

Eric 

absolutely, yeah, because he was running. So this is this running the search ads team at Google, which, you know, I like to joke is $100 billion business what I was there, just like minor, small little business, and I’m leading business strategy and operations for it. So, as part of that, I got I was in the room with all these amazing leaders at Google. I got to learn from them. I got to watch them. I got to work with them to make things happen. So it was kind of this getting to see leadership done right at a really large scale is a it was a really amazing experience for me. But to Were to fast forward. After a few years of that, I was like, Okay, what am I? Again? What am I doing with my life? Like, I’m really good at this. I’ve done it for a few years now. Is this the endpoint? Like, what else? Like, is there anything else I want to do with my career with my life. And I looked at some of the options within Google, like, I didn’t want to be like a director of VP running a big team that didn’t appeal to me. I realized, like, what I really liked, are these one on one conversations, helping figure out what to do next. And I used to joke that like, as Chief of Staff, like my favorite part of the week was that one hour week I spent with my VP figured out like, Okay, what the hell’s happening? What are we going to do, how we’re gonna move forward from here, and all the other headcount budget strategy, operations stuff, I did all that. So I get that one hour a week. And now as executive coach, I just do the one hour a week, it’s usually the one.

Angie 

And that’s it. So did you just just really like practically speaking, did you go from Google straight into coaching? Like, how did that transition happen? I’m curious about all of that. I mean, you definitely told us how it set you up to move into the type of coaching you do. I’m curious logistically, like how that transition look for you.

Eric 

So, this is the first time I intentionally thoughtfully planned out the transition. So in, like, let’s say, let me I’ll play it out step by step, because it might be helpful for people. I had four years and I was complaining to a friend, that my Chief of Staff job was not measuring me on the right things not measured me on the things that matter. And my friend asked me, okay, so what are the things that matter? What are the right things? I’m like, Oh, crap, I have no idea how to answer that question. So that led to a summer of reflection. And I got back to this point of like, I really love helping people. I really love one on one interaction. And my friends, like, that’s called coaching, have you considered coaching? I’m like, Wait, that’s a job. You

Angie 

can do, like, smacked you in the face.

Eric 

And but even then, I was like, Okay, that’s interesting possibility. How do I find out more? So I reached out to five professional coaches and said, Hey, you seem to be doing this? Can I get 30 minutes with you just learn more how I get started? Well, what should I know? What do you wish you’d known, they all generously agreed to talk to me and gave me some tips and pointers, all five of them were like, you know, I really should really get trained and certified. Even if you’re a natural at this, getting the framework in the formal training is going to help you like, Okay, five out of five tells you to do something, it’s probably good advice. So then I went and did a training program at an institute called New Ventures West, which is a year long training and certification program came out of that I loved it, it was amazing. It was transformational for me, came out of that even more excited about coaching. I’m like, Okay, this is really what I want to do. And even then, I’m still not ready to pull the trigger. Because it’s like, even if I love it, even if I’m passionate about it, can I make money back to the business thing, like I know, now I have to make money, it’s not a business, and I can’t deliver enough value for somebody to pay me.

Angie 

That is a practical, I mean, and you can only be an entrepreneur, if you can figure out how to monetize your idea. Otherwise, you’re just you’re just a creator. Exactly.

Eric 

So that was I spent one more year starting a coaching business on the side, and taking clients and proving that there were people that would pay me to have him have you coached them. And so this ended up being like a three year process from like, who I’ve coaching sounds interesting to actually pulling the trigger and leaving Google. But after a year of coaching on the side, I had some clients, I had people referring me to other people. And I was like, it was time to go on my own and build my own business as a coach. So that was summer of 2019. So

Angie 

I have to stop. And just, I’m gonna thank you, because I have asked people that question a lot on here. And you are the one who has actually answered it and of course, it took a physics engineer, business person to, like, walk me through the transition. And I love how you explained it, because there’s a couple things I want to highlight for people out there. First of all, I want to reinforce that there was a lot to leave on the table in making this choice. And it wasn’t done rashly. It was done very intentionally, which I think is very, very important. It also was not done overnight. And that’s one of the things that I think we we are so impatient today because of all the instant gratification available to us that we aren’t willing to go through a process in order to kind of make a change behind a choice. And, and I love that component of it and even some of the practical pieces you did to inform the decision. And the idea that if you want to start a business, it does not have to be cut cold turkey and go into business. If you have the ability to manage it. It’s something you can do on the side to prove the concept and build a little bit of traction before you completely take the leap. So you A I’m so glad I’m so glad that you will kind of walked us through that. And now I want to dig more into what you’re doing in business.

Eric 

I want to do one more one more point here. Because even after all of that, I had traction, I have clients, I had the certification, I had all the pieces, it was still hard to leave. Because I think Google is wherever else is trying to get to. I get a lot of money. Yeah, I was getting a lot of money. And I was at a prestigious option there. I had stock, I had prestigious role, I had the trust of these leaders. I mean, my the VP of supporting is now the general manager of all ads at Google, he rents like a 15,000 person organization. And like, I was the chief of staff, I was like with him along the way on the way to the top. And I could have just kept writing that trade and been in a very influential big scope role right now. And so it was really hard to walk away. I like that summer when I was like, Ooh, if I’m ready to do this, it was I was debating, like, this seems irresponsible. And the the one of the other factors that I should mention here is I had also gotten married, and we were having our first kid around that time and like I have to be a good provider. Like how do I take this chance when I have a son depending on me? Fortunately, I had a good coach at the time. And she was like, Okay, let’s think about this. So you’re gonna stay in a job that you know is getting more and more burdensome on you that’s stressing you out. It’s taking all your time. Is that the example you want to set for your site? To stay the job they hate you hate? Just for the money. I was like, oh, that’s me.

Angie 

The guy and you needed it.

Eric 

I needed it. And that was such a clear answer the revulsion I felt, and this gets back to that idea of you have a choice. Because in the capitalist world, where my worth is measured by how much money I make, and the prestigious job I have, there was this was not a choice. This was not a choice I could make. But when I reformed, it said, What is the life I want to live? Do I want to be around for my son? Do I want to be present for my son? That was a very different set of criteria. How do I want to measure my life? And it wasn’t by just how much money I made. So that’s another example of how I made an intentional choice to leave the money, the prestige, all that behind to embrace the life that I wanted to live.

Angie 

Oh, there’s so much good stuff there. So now we understand they have a choice title, the book. And I would also say, now we’ve gotten a glimpse into that that subtitle concept of it’s beyond hard work to meaningful impact, because, and this, and this is where I get, I get on a soapbox about this on this podcast, which is why I love that we’re having an entire episode. So I can be on the soapbox is that everything in life is a choice. And and most of the time we choose not to make it right and not making it is a choice. And I think that that has led to so much mediocrity and accepting of the mediocrity because we stay in the safe zone, we stay in the expected societal norm of I can’t leave a chief of staff role at Google. What am I going to tell people? I do? And that tends to be the knee-jerk reaction. Everybody has to considering what if I do something different?

Eric 

Let me tell you, my mom was not supportive, because she was very proud of having her son at Google, like a look at my fancy son at Google. She was like, What, what are you doing?

Angie 

So I’ll tell you, hi. Hi, mom. And Dad, I love you more than anything in the world. But I know my mom just just winced a little bit. Because I imagine that conversely, I have a feeling we have parents of a similar age and same generation who are not used to doing something different. So that’s one big shake-up. And I would say that generation note nothing against it is very is very accustomed to like appearances. Right? I still remember exactly where I was. The day I called my mom and said, I’m going to leave engineering. And it did not go well. Your engineering degree from Carnegie Mellon, what are you going to go do, and what are we going to tell people? Right? It all worked out. And she is my number one fan. She’s listened to every single one of these podcasts, which is why no she’s hearing me talk about her right? Yeah, but it’s exact. It’s exactly that same thing of it bucks a trend right? It bucks that societal norm, and it takes a lot to step out of that. However, that’s where the meaningful impact lies. Absolutely.

Eric 

Because, you know, there’s that saying that if you do what everybody else does, you’re gonna get similar results. So if you want to, if you don’t like how your life is going, do something different. But if you keep repeating the same things, you’re gonna get similar results. So this is something You know, you mentioned I mentioned, I’m an executive coach now. And this is one of the critical things, I always talk to my clients. I’m like, okay, you don’t like your current situation. That’s why you’re talking to me. Let’s try an experiment. Let’s try something that is different than your default unconscious, automatic response. And see what happens. Let’s poke the system a little bit and see what happens. I’m not saying you have to change your life and have to, like, have a huge transformative moment right now. But like, one different action. Let’s try that. If we start from there, then let’s see where we go. Well,

Angie 

and it’s in that one action, that one thing you can control is exactly where my mind was going. Doesn’t have to be changing the like code type and your back end architecture, right? Doesn’t some fundamental systemic thing that keeps your whole life running, it can be small thing. So let’s lean into that a little bit and talk more about this idea that the only thing you control control is your next action. Right? Like, you know, and I think that’s like, that presents, right? We focus so we have anxiety for the past anxiety for the future. But if you just sit here and say the only thing I can do, is it the only thing I control is what I do next. How do we how do we embrace that a little bit more?

Eric 

Yeah, I mean, this was such a critical idea for me. I mean, it’s not new to me, let me be clear, there’s 1000s of years of spiritual tradition that talk about being present and mindfulness. But how do we embrace it is it’s taking responsibility for that thing that we control, which is our next action. When we push that responsibility onto others. We’re just like, Well, no, my manager made me do that. It’s like, well, you still said yes. To what the manager, my manager made me work all weekend, like, did they? Or did you agree to take on that work? Well, if I said, No, then they’d get mad at me. Oh, so there was a choice. And you didn’t want to delete the consequences, like the consequences? That’s fine. But own the choice. And you know, I tell people, like every day you show up to work, that’s a choice. Like, you can just not show up to work and say I quit. Yes, there are consequences. Yes, you have financial commitments. Yes, you may have a mortgage you have to pay. Those are also choices. And like I speak about the past, like, in the book, I have a whole section about like, past you made choices, and you are constrained by those choices today. But you don’t have to let your life be ruled by past you. Like you can make new choices. And, you know, the example I give is the physics thing. Like, in middle school, I decided I was gonna be a physicist, like, no matter what, that’s how I was gonna be I was gonna be a physics professor. I read surely you’re joking, Mr. Fineman. And like, I’m like, I’m gonna be Richard Fineman when I grew up. And I was like, I stuck to it.

Angie 

No middle school child ever, but we’ll just move on.

Eric 

I was a big nerd. He had a great life. Like he was like, doing Samba dancing in Brazil and like partying in Japan. And like, it’s like, that’s, this sounds fun. I want to do that. Turns out, he could only do that because he was a super genius. And I, you know, wasn’t. But anyway, but like, even as undergrad, I struggled my physics classes, but I’m like, No, I’m doing this, I’m gonna push through, I’m gonna make it happen. I’m gonna keep going. I got into grad school, when in the Ph. D program, like, two months into grad school was clear, I didn’t belong there. Like I did not know what to do. I didn’t know what else to do. So I’m like, Well, I’m just gonna make it work. I’m just gonna push harder. And make find a way to struggle through this and make it happen. And so like three years in grad school, I finally headed out when my friend offered me a job. But it’s like, there was seven years of my life, never constrained, because Middle School, Eric decided I was gonna be a physicist. And it’s like, what the hell?

Angie 

No, no, that I don’t not know that I want my 12 year old self to drive life’s decisions. But I’m sitting here, I wish you all could see us because this is a very, like, lively conversation as far as like interact, like the physical interactions and everything like that. But Eric has said like several different things that I’m like, we have parallel lives. You’re just the, the probably the tall male version of my very short, short female self. Because literally, as a freshman engineering student, I am like, how am I going to pass this physics class? And why did I not wake up at that point in time and say, maybe I should do something different?

Eric 

I mean, it’s even worse in my case, because I was literally taking the intro to computer science class as a freshman and I was acing it without ever without even trying. It was, like, so easy for me. And I was barely passing my physics class, like, struggling to get a C. And my first reaction was like, so your major in computer science, right? I’m like, No, I’m a physicist. He’s like, I’m sorry. No, no. Like, she was like, I don’t think you understand what you’re saying here. He’s like, I’m like, No, I’m gonna be a physicist. And he was so worried. He actually sent a letter to my mom and dad, like, you should talk to your side and talk about it. talk him out of the stream, because he is not understanding the consequences of his act. chin. And I still had this memory of a couple years later, I was taking the hardest physics class, it was a classical Junior lab. And he walks in. And he looks at me he’s like, this guy’s still in the physical program. The hell? Like fuck you. Sorry.

Angie 

Well deserved, well deserved. Literally, they’re like, this is like, it’s like, it’s like hitting you in the face. And you’re just like, No, no, my 11 year old self told me I’m doing this I’m writing. I’m just gonna keep keep at it. Right? Yeah, absolutely. I feel like this comes into cut brings in another part of the of the book so perfectly of like, we are usually the problem, right? We are usually in our own way. Like, how hilarious is it that in this circumstance, your your middle school self is who’s in the way, but in a bigger sense. And in the, in the in when every part of what’s in the way is present? Like how do we how do we get out of our way?

Eric 

It’s a good question. How do we get out of our own way? Because it’s so automatic. It’s so unconscious. And it was like, so automatic for me like no, of course, I’m just part of it is. I mean, trusted advisors really help. Yeah, this is what you and I do as coaches, but that’s what friends are for. But we actually have to listen, when they say, Hey, you should really look at this, like, my friends are like, hey, it seems like you’re a workaholic and working all the time. I’m like, no, no, but I have to, it’s fine. And like, why didn’t I listen?

Angie 

Yeah, don’t be, don’t be in denial might be a third point there. If you’re gonna listen, make sure you hear and then admit to yourself where you’re at. Absolutely.

Eric 

But that’s the thing is, it’s so being denialists is so easy, because it’s like, if I open up that choice, I’ve opened up all these other things that are caught downstream consequence of like, like, you know, the physics one, just go back to it. Like if I had admitted, like, I’m not ready, because it’s like, well, then what else am I going to do with my life? What’s my path? Oh, those are really scary. Things I don’t want to have an answer for so I’m just gonna close that box up, put it away, hide under the desk and never look at it again.

Angie 

I find that to be a really common challenge with Okay, what if I do something different? But I don’t know what different is. So I’m just not going to even think about doing something different. Right? So, the absence of an alternative creates an action. Yes,

Eric 

yes. So this gets back to the idea of experiment. So when I was just starting to explore coaching, that friend of mine that was like, so what is the way you want to be measured, she was looking to change careers also. And we committed to weekly accountability calls, like we are going to call each other each week, we’re gonna say, what is one thing I did in the last week to explore a new option? So to your point, like what are the options? So we were like, we looked at grad programs, we looked at like different jobs and companies that were interesting. And just knowing I was gonna be asked, like, what is one, one thing you did in the last week to explore the new path. And six months of these calls later, she had an internship at her dream company, and I was enrolled in a coaching program. It’s like, it doesn’t take that long if you just commit to doing one thing a week, one

Angie 

thing at a time. And also, and I would say, and pair that with accountability. And that’s a magic equation right there. Right? Because you’ve got a a sounding board and that accountability relationship, but a level of commitment that oftentimes we can’t keep our selves to, even if we are high achievers from Day Zero.

Eric 

Yes, because it’s so easy to get caught in our own naps and mazes of our own mind. And just having somebody else to say, like, what, what are you doing?

Angie 

Yeah, I think, yeah, we you can, we can really get like analysis paralysis, especially if you just tend to be an analytical person anyway. And I think that content does tend to overcomplicate things that when unwound become very simple. And that’s, that’s where getting out of like your little echo chamber, sometimes I’ll joke and say, get somebody in there with you can make a big difference to this idea of getting out of your own way as maybe to bring others into it. And then there’s that idea that like navigating, navigating what you what you find in that exploration means you have to be willing to embrace the change that comes from making choice.

Eric 

Yes, and letting go of certain certain things that were part of your identity, part of your value part of who you were before, that’s, I think the hardest part about change. People are like, oh, I want to change like, yeah, do you understand what you have to let go of, to get the change you want? Like, when do they start to look at that, like, oh, I want to keep everything the same, and get the new thing it’s like, that’s not how it works. That’s

Angie 

that’s that whole cake eat thing that we’ve heard our whole entire lives, but if you want if you want change, something will have to change. And that doesn’t mean you have to sacrifice everything you know in your existence. However, that is the very nature of doing something different right is you want change therefore something should have to change. Some of them are intentional and some of them are consequences are byproducts of the bigger decision. And it if they’re if they’re ones that are hard to hard to swallow, if they may not be forever, but you’re never, you’re never going to get anywhere, if you stay in the comfort zone.

Eric 

Absolutely, I mean, a lot of the times, what we really want is we want the result of the change, but we don’t want to do the work. For the change. Like I used to joke, I wanted to have run a marathon, like I wouldn’t be able to check the box, I didn’t actually train for the marathon. It was like, well, that’s, that’s gonna be really hard. should

Angie 

I should tell that story about how I registered to run a half marathon, paid for anything got into the training, and ran five miles. I was like, I never need to run further than this and didn’t do it. So I wanted to have run a half marathon, I did not want to do the work. And that’s, that goes back to something we talked about super early in this conversation about like, seeking instant gratification and not being willing, or even worse, being closed to the process and the patience that sometimes has to come in to realizing the what is different, like you were at you spent six more years at Google, from the point you ever said, Maybe I should do something different, until it actually played out. And that included three years of building this thing on the side, right. And so if you’re able to apply some patience to this idea of making choices, and being okay, with changes that come that all is a really great ecosystem to realize something very meaningful and impactful. Absolutely.

Eric 

And the funny thing is, like, you don’t even have to be that patient. Like if you just start taking steps, you can make a lot more progress than you think like, I told you, like six months of accountability calls I went from like, I have no idea what I want to do next with my life, like, I have a direction. I’m in training, I could see where it goes from here. It was not that long. But it’s like people say like, how do we get things? Yeah, it’s, it’s like, how do I get to the top of that mountain? You don’t just jump to the straight at the top of the mountain, you take one step, and then another and then another. But the really important thing here, if I’m going to leave with any message is like, take one step one experiment, do one thing in the direction that looks a direction that looks promising. Yes, you don’t know if it’s the right thing. Yes, it might not be perfect. But try one thing that changes things up. And that’s going to unlock so many more possibilities for you.

Angie 

That looks a whole lot like your biggest pearl of wisdom. So you better start thinking because I’m going to make you give me another gold nugget for our last question in a minute. Okay, this is i This is so fundamental what we’re talking about, yet we make it so so so hard. And I what I love so much about this is one, sharing it with somebody who’s has so many so many similar perspectives, and either some, even some similar, like, career crossroads in the engineering brain that apply that applies to some of it. But it’s so so so fundamental. And it’s this is where people like Eric and I can come in and help you get out of your own way, if you feel really, really caught up, or you feel compelled to want to do something different, but just can’t get yourself to be okay with the change or can’t get yourself to take that one small step forward. These are these are things that help you lean in to a more satisfying more aligned life and career. And it’s and I think what Eric and I both share is is really, the I feel like it’s a conviction to help you out there do this kinds of thing, right? I am a huge I want to write a book called The mediocrity trap. I hope nobody else has Eric, don’t steal it. Maybe we’ll write it together. Right. But this is the kind of stuff that gets you out of it. And living now instead of waiting for retirement to have some fun.

Eric 

Yes, yeah. And I want to I want to say one more thing, which is like, it’s, it’s hard to do this work alone, it’s hard to see your own habits. Like, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ll be talking to my coach or my therapist, and they’ll be like, have you noticed this about yourself? I’m like, I have literally asked that exact question, this exact observation about three clients this week alone. How did I not see I’m doing the same thing? Like, it just happens. Like that’s the fight therapists or therapists, my coaches have coaches, it’s like, it’s really hard to see yourself.

Angie 

And we all have blind spots the work to close the forest or trees, whatever saying you want to apply to it. It’s sometimes somebody needs to hold up a mirror for you. And it’s, and that’s okay. It’s okay to realize things about yourself, you don’t love it’s the only way we can improve them. And sometimes we just have to work around them. So I completely completely agree. I love it. I could preach on this all day long. Eric,

Eric, 

me too. Obviously. You

Angie 

and I live we’re gonna like share a ticket and we’re gonna go like on the on the road with this one. But this is this is like, I don’t know that I’ve ever had a conversation or met somebody who I feel titled A book more appropriately. So like, seriously, this is it’s like it’s so so so perfect. So I want you to tell everybody where they can find it because I know it’s about to hit shelves, where we find Thank you and where are we fought follow along, and all this great stuff you have to put out there.

Eric 

Yeah, so the book is called you have a choice beyond hard work to meaningful impact. It’ll be available on Amazon, probably by the time this podcast releases. You can learn more about the book at too many trees.com/book to many trees.com Is my site, which I’m glad you mentioned the forest for the trees, because that is the idea. I figured you knew that. But that’s the idea. It’s like, sometimes we’re stuck in the trees. I

Angie 

actually meant to bring that up that I love what you called your business, because it is exactly that it is helping it is helping cut down some trees to see a clear path for everybody out there and

Eric 

navigate your way through the forest. And it’s like, sometimes we just need somebody else to help us get out of the trees or look at it from like, oh, wait, when I see this angle, it’s clear what I have to do. It’s hard to do that for yourself. And that’s what I tried to do for my clients.

Angie 

I love it. Okay, so too many trees.com Is your coaching site book will be on Amazon, we’re gonna link all of this in show notes. Yeah, Eric and I are also connected on LinkedIn. So join his network there. Because you know, people like us like to fill up your newsfeeds on LinkedIn? Yes, we do. And then I’m gonna, I’m gonna challenge you. Because I love the last piece of advice in the pearl of wisdom you you gave around do one thing, right? But I’m gonna, I’m gonna make you give us another. So I’m going to say what is your second number one piece of advice on what everybody out there can do to get one step closer to a more satisfying life and career. I

Eric 

guess the second piece would be, you can’t do it all. And high achievers hate hearing that, like, I’m gonna be great at my job, and a great pair and a great partner. And I’m gonna go do triathlons. And I’m gonna do this, I see people doing all these things. And I can do any individual one of them, as well as that other person

Angie 

asked when you said that, but

Eric 

but it’s just, when you look at it, there’s a limited amount of time and energy you have available each week. And if you’re going to try to do everything a little bit, you’re gonna do everything kind of mediocrity wise, I mean, you mentioned the videographer. Yep. That’s the trap of mediocrity. I would do a little bit this a little bit that a little bit that a little bit that you do nothing? Well, focus is critical. I am going to make this the most important thing, I’m gonna put my attention there, put my energy there with my time there. And that means saying no, and letting go to other things that are valuable, that I’m good at. But I can’t do them all. There’s this quote by Steve Jobs, something like people think focus means saying yes to the thing that you want that you want to focus on. That’s not what it means, means saying no to the 100 other good ideas that you have. So that’s the thing I’ll leave you with, you can’t do it all say no to the good stuff. So you can do the one thing that you are uniquely great at the thing that you are fantastic at, because that’s how you really have impact.

Angie 

I now immediately want to have a second episode where we discussing No. So, just put that on your radar. But for now, oh my gosh, this is there was so much here. It’s so so so so much here, so much more even than I had hoped, knowing what we were going to talk about and getting to know you. So I love that you were one willing to be vulnerable about such a big career crossroads, right big stakes career crossroads big, you know, big changes, making big changes at a time there are a lot of life potential consequences, but we’re working through it and finding a way to make it happen anyway, right? If there’s if there’s one thing I hope everybody takes out of you and your experience, it’s that, but then I also hope all of you tune in and get the book because it is I may have gotten a preview and it is it is worth the glimpse that you have gotten here, right because this is the kind of stuff that can give you a better life and career. And you know, that’s what we’re all about here at no more Mondays. So Eric, thank you so much for being here. I feel excited and I feel energized after this conversation, which is an amazing way to feel after recording a podcast so I want today to thank you so much for being here.

Eric 

Thank you so much for Angie. I really enjoyed her conversation discovering all these kinds of parallels and you know, intersections in our lives and our philosophies. It’s really pleasant to find a fellow traveler in that way. So really appreciate the coalition

Angie 

that’s a good way to put it fellow traveler and maybe we’ll journey together some more I you know, we’ve got lots to do together. And until the next time everyone thank you so much for tuning into this jam packed episode of no more Mondays. I hope you will head over to wherever you listen to your podcasts and leave this episode of five star rating because it deserves it and follow us because it’s a huge help as we continue to bring you these really inspiring, impactful stories if you want to grab the links to Eric’s book, his website or any of the show notes head on over to no more Mondays dot info you can always leave us feedback or drop a guest suggestion there as well. And until next week when you hear me on the airwaves again, I will see you for the next episode of the No More Mondays podcast